Is Our Music Godly?
Posted by Chris · 19 Comments
Recently I have been in discussion with a guy from the church we previously attended about music. He was concerned that the music that my family was listening to was not pleasing to God. I disagreed with him based on the absence of Scriptural evidence for his claim. We weren’t talking about hard sinful lyrics, but music with Christian lyrics. You see, his position has nothing to do with the actual type of music, or even the lyrics, but his claim is that any music which resembles ‘worldly’ music is sinful. His stated position is that of the following quote by Robet Berglund:
“If any style of music–in its embodied or designed meaning–creates feelings, ideas, emotions, values, or moods that are of, by, or for the unchanged way of life, such music is out of place in the changed life experience.”
I obviously disagree with this position. Using this logic no music should be listened to by a Christian, and that includes the old hymns which we sing in church. It is my position that it is only what we associate the music with which causes individual listeners problems. I see this as an issue of Christian liberty, and not something dealt with in the Scriptures, thus it must be individually discerned.
I asked for Scriptural support for his position and these are the verses which he gave me. As you look at them, does it seem as if any of these verses declare a particular style of music?
Eph 5:10 or I Peter 1:14-15, or I Thes 5:21-22…many more. The Bible does speak of music in Col 3:16, Eph 5:18-19, II Chron 29:27, 30, Ps 89:1, Ps 119:54, Ps 104:33, Ps 59:16-17, Ps 96:1, Ps 40:3, Ps 7:17, Isa 24:14, Isa 42:10, Isa 49:13, I Sam 16:23, Job 35:10, Rev 5:9, Rev 14:3
I didn’t think so.
He admitted to me that the Bible makes no statement condemning a style of music, yet he went on to talk about how a particular type of music has the ability to influence us to act a certain way. He referenced 1 Sam 16:23 to show how David’s playing of the harp to Saul was able to refresh Saul and caused the demon to depart. Somehow he sees this as an example of the power of music to call in, or cast out demons. He even goes on to quote some guy called Simon Frith as saying: “The sexuality of music is usually referred to in terms of its rhythm–it is the beat that commands a directly physical response.” This is somehow proof that music will cause us to commit sin or something. Is music really what leads people to sin? The Bible sure doesn’t seem to make that claim.
The most difficult part of his argument was his explanation of how the elements of music must work together. Melody, harmony, and rhythm. He says that harmony is the intellectual part of music. Harmony is the part that our mind responds to. And that a correct, good sounding, mood producing harmony can only be arranged and effectively written by a trained musician. If that is true, I have no way to discern what good harmony is, because I know nothing of music. Then he said that rhythm is the pulse of music, and when it is overbearing, thats when your body responds negatively.
I have heard a lot of music, and I can honestly say that music does not make me want to sin. The only thing music does make me want to do is smash a speaker, or a CD player when it is playing something that I really don’t like. Well, I guess that might be considered sin.
This next reason really seems to explain why some people are against modern music. He gave the following quote, apparently from Rick Warren. “We use the style of music the majority of people in our church listen to on the radio. They like bright, happy, cheerful music with a strong beat. Their ears are accustomed to music with a strong bass line and rhythm.” Apparently being associated with a church such as Warren’s is so bad, that we must not do anything which those type churches do. Now, I don’t agree with everything that Warren teaches, but how is playing music which a particular people enjoy wrong? Especially if you can associate the Gospel with the music? There is nothing wrong with enjoying the music you listen to as long as you can glorify God while doing so. So far, I have seen nothing that proves that modern music cannot glorify God.
And finally he said, ” Music with a strong back beat and/or rhythm has no place in a Christian’s life.”
I really don’t like a lot of the rock style music. It doesn’t sound any better to me when it has Christian lyrics. I am still hesitant about embracing all types of Christian music, but I realize it is not because of a Biblical conviction, but because of my personal preference. For the record, I can’t stand a lot of the traditional music which I hear in some conservative churches. Some of it makes me want to throw a song book at the lady singing it. This isn’t because the music is drawing evil spirits which are negatively influencing me, but because I think that style of music (this spot formerly contained a word that some find offensive). I don’t prefer that sound.
Anyway, I found this article which goes along with this topic: How Bach Used the “Devil’s Music
I like how he shows that men like Luther, who were considered the progressives of the day pushed for the new music standards which were being popularized by Bach and others. At the same time, the conservatives like Calvin were against any modern music, even the use of instruments. It just seems funny that what once was called the “Devil’s Music” is now what is called great Christian hymns. And the arguments which the conservatives had then
- The use of specific instruments
- Polyphony. Polyphony refers to music that has two or more separate melodic lines (voices). Before polyphony, music was monophonic (consisting of only a single voice or melody line and no harmony).
- Dissonance in music
- Questionable rhythms
- Excessive technical ornamentation (referring to musicians who showed off their ability a little too much)
in many ways parallel the arguments of the musical conservatives today. Hopefully one day we can get away from all this and start focusing on the Word of God.
Thank you very much for this.
Music appeals to us in so many different ways. You’ll never convince me that it doesn’t appeal to the flesh. And many times it has nothing to do with the lyrics.
Everyone I’ve ever mentioned this to has found themselves in the same situation. You’ll be walking through a store doing your grocery shopping, minding your own business. All of a sudden, you find yourself bobbing your head, tapping your foot on the floor or your fingers on the buggy as you walk down the aisle. Of course, the tapping or bobbing is right on beat with the music that is playing over the store speakers which you may or may not have actually been paying attention to. In other words, it makes your body react even when you’re not aware of it.
I’ve seen several quotes by musicians themselves, mostly rock, about how it’s all in the music – not the lyrics. Some have said it transforms the mind and changes your consciousness. They say it’s the mere SOUND of the music, especially the beat, that has the power to transform. They don’t care so much about the lyrics as they do the music. If you get into the heavy metal stuff, you can’t even understand what they’re saying anyway. The lyrics have nothing to do with it. They say that the music itself has a message all its own. Yes, it is the music itself that can be, and is in many cases, ungodly.
We all know how Satan likes to sneak into our lives and yes, into churches, as many ways as he can. I’ve seen it happen way too many times to think that it can’t happen.
As educated as you are I’m sure you already know this, but you failed to mention it in this post so I’m bringing it up. Lucifer was a musical angel before he was cast out of Heaven. Whether or not he still has his own viols (Isaiah 14), he is still a being with much knowledge in music. I refuse to be naive and not worry about the devil’s ability to sneak ungodly music into our lives, even with ‘Christian’ lyrics. He will use any and all devices he can to get to us. Music just happens to be one of his strongest points.
Lastly, you used an offensive, vulgar slang word to describe the traditional music style used in conservative churches. That says a lot all by itself, and biases my thoughts (as well as others I’m sure) on your opinions presented on this blog.
Thanks, Jonathan, I appreciate your comments. I have considered the points you make, but, as I tried to point out in my post, the Bible itself does not point out which style of music God thinks should be used in church. Nor does it give us any idea on what should be considered ungodly.
As you read the Psalms, you will notice that many were to be put to music. Yet we don’t have the music. The Jews have sang the Psalms in their worship for years, but, if you have ever had the privilege to hear them, it sounds more along the lines of a chant. Recently, some of the Psalms have been put back to what some Jews believe is the original music of the Psalms, and, if you listen to it, well it doesn’t resemble anything like we listen to today.
If we were to take the stand that anything of the world is ungodly that would include much traditional songs, and definitely the bluegrass and southern gospel music that many people in our area love so much today.
Yes, Satan has musical knowledge as well as much other knowledge which we do not. To what extent he influences the churches we do not know. It would be foolish to think he does not. However, for a person to say that they have it all figured out, and that their way is right, while those with opposing view points are wrong, would be totally asinine.
So, I stand with my view. Each believer should approach music as well as everything else with caution. Believers should discern things spiritually and not simply by preferences. We should read the history and thoughts of those that have went down this road long before us.
You are right about the word “sucks,” it is considered by some to be offensive. I should have stuck to biblical language. I think that some of the styles of music I have heard in traditional churches is nothing more than, uh, “dung.”
I feel like you’re missing my point, which is simply this – in your original post you make it seem as if any music with the ‘Christian’ label is ok. You didn’t say it specifically this way, but that is the tone that I got from it. So, my point is that we would be foolish to believe that ‘all’ of it is ok, and that Satan hasn’t gotten his hands into a good portion of it. We have to be extremely careful in our choices. You didn’t make any provision for this in your post and it is a huge hole.
Something I’m confused about is that in your post you spoke of your preferences and wouldn’t admit/agree/whatever that any particular form of ‘Christian’ music was wrong. But here in the comments you say that things must be discerned Spiritually and not by preferences.
Your case is not a solid one. The case of the individual you spoke to may not be rock solid either, but given the history of the world’s music, and how that their music, without any lyrics even, can still transform your mind, the ‘Christian’ music that mimics it is no better – even with the good lyrics. Music has a language all its own – if you don’t believe that, you need to do some more research.
That is the point. We can not lump one particular form or style in to the “bad” category. For instance, some men will preach against CCM. They lump it all together as “the devil’s music.” However, this field of music is very wide, and it would be foolish to say it is all bad. Secondly, it would be wrong to say that all of a particular style is bad. Just because a song has a particular “rock” beat does not make it wrong. And if there is a song with a particular sound or beat which you, or I feel is wrong, that does not make all other similar music wrong.
So, I am trying to say that each Christian should discern for himself. When we don’t have a specific Biblical instruction, we can not make dogmatic statements about right and
wrong. I feel that many people assume that their preferences are right, and instead of allowing others to discern for themselves, they would rather condemn all CCM music. There is some music which I do not think is “godly” but I am not willing to condemn it all, or all music by that particular group.
I have my preferences. I would rather listen to music which I have evaluated and feel to be God honoring, and that I prefer, rather than music which I feel is God honoring but that I do not prefer. If I do not believe it to be God honoring, I am not going to listen to it regardless of whether or not I prefer it.
Yes music is a language of sorts, and I would love to understand it better. However, the Bible was not written in musical notes, and the musical notes which were written to parts of the Word of God were not preserved for us. So, there is not a case.
Romans 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
The word esteemeth means “judges” or “discerns.”
The point is, you have made your judgment. Others have made their judgment. I have made my judgment. I don’t expect you to accept mine, but unless you or someone else can show me the Biblical doctrine which teaches about a style of music, I can’t accept your point of view.
I will concede that there is no black & white (that I have found at least) distinction in the Bible of a good or bad style of music. My views & opinions on it haven’t implied that it does.
However, where you’re mistaken is that a particular sound or beat does make a song wrong, regardless of the lyrics. If you learn more of how music affects the mind, and the heart (physically in some cases) you will see this. My point of view may not be Biblically based, but it is at least an educated point of view in the area of music itself. Yours has no basis other than there is no Biblical backing to ‘the other point of view’.
This is starting to have a bit of an ironic tone to it. You claim that others need to repent of their ignorance on the KJV issues. You need to repent of your ignorance on this issue.
It’s a weak position when you simply claim that there is no Biblical backing for or against a point of view and leave it at that. Yet you research and read after all kinds of other men to try to find your answers on the KJV issues. King James wasn’t in the Bible. Music styles aren’t in the Bible. So you are either willingly ignorant which you correctly said is a sin in one of your other posts, or you already have it all figured out. But you said that would be asinine.
You posed the question of Godly music and I have answered it to the best of my ability at this point. To get any further, you’ll have to agree that music, regardless of lyrics, does in fact affect your mind and body. Otherwise you just simply can’t be reasoned with.
Very interesting point of view you have. Thank you for agreeing “that there is no black and white distinction in the Bible of a good or bad style of music.” This is good discussion and one of us may be able to at least understand the other better.
I have never intended to say that music does not affect the body or mind. In my post, I did not make the statement that I did not believe that it can have any effect on the body. What I did say, was that I do not believe the music itself will cause a person to sin. I agree with your statement about hearing music and tapping your foot or bobbing your head, of course everyone experiences this. What I do not believe is that this must be considered as a negative.
In my email discussions I had with the individual, He made the statement:
“It is when this pulse is overbearing or out of control that causes our bodies to respond in a way that is not pleasing to God.”
My point to him was that music does not cause my body to do that which is not pleasing to the Lord. What is unpleasing to the Lord? He is not pleased when we are disobedient to His Word. However, the points I have tried to make is that listening to music does not constitute disobedience, because there is no instruction on what type of music we are to listen to. Nor, is simply moving to music.
Look at young children, even infants, they will dance or move to music. These children are not sinning. There is nothing wrong with it. It is natural. Now, if the music causes me to disobey God’s Word then you would have a point. However, can you show me evidence of this being the case? If so, we can go on with this and discuss why you think it is the music causing the sinful behavior. But thus far no one has presented that evidence, only statements.
Now, as far as me using the same type of argument as I am arguing against on the KJV issue, that is not true. KJV-Onlyism is a doctrine being taught with lies, deception, and bending of truth. I have shown facts that prove this argument incorrect, and there is much more to be shown. I have dealt with the Bible, and what it actually says, to show that the arguments being used by KJV-Only advocates are false. I have backed up my points, by showing what was said by theologians which used the Word of God to explain that the verses mentioned were not in reference to what is being taught by the KJV-O.
You cannot make a Biblical doctrine without Biblical facts. KJV-O’s have attempted to do this. You cannot make a Biblical doctrine on music without Biblical facts to support it. If you want to make a connection between the bodies natural response to sounds and sin, then you must present facts that show it.
So, if we are to continue the discussion you must present facts that do prove your point. I will not accept the words of a rock star as proof.
Dancing, however natural it may be to move to music, has so many sexual connections. Lots of things are natural, to the natural man – that doesn’t mean it is ok. For instance, man’s natural, sexual drive can cause him to sin. A saved man still has that drive, but the Holy Ghost living in him helps him to do right and not fulfill that lust or give in to that temptation.
Is the dancing honoring to God? Is it in praise to Him? Was the dancing around the golden calf pleasing to God? If it is not honoring to God, it is lustful and appealing to the flesh, and it is worldly and wrong. Now, I’ll be the first to admit that I don’t know what a Holy dance is, but I do know that tapping your foot or bobbing your head to a beat is not. Music has this power over us, and the wrong kind will make us do these things.
I’m guessing these ‘natural’ body movements is what this other individual was talking about as far as music causing us to behave in ways that is displeasing to God.
My belief is that, at least one of the reasons it is displeasing to God is that as Christians we are supposed to be different. We are supposed to stand out. 1 Peter 2:9, 2 Corinthians 6:17. I may sound like a broken record, but it’s not in the lyrics – if the beat is the same as the world’s, and if the rhythm and pulse are the same as the world’s, what is to separate us? Of course these verses can not only be applied to music, but to a multitude of other things as to how we are supposed to be different from the world.
The problem isn’t always necessarily that something has to be displeasing to God for it to be ‘wrong’. Look at it in a way as if to ask yourself, “Is it pleasing to God?” Or, “Does this honor Him?” (To him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin) Toe tapping and head bobbing does not give God honor or glory. The lyrics don’t make us do those things anyway – it’s the music.
Off the top of my head, this is the closest I have to Biblical proof based on how music naturally makes us want to dance.
Your argument with dancing assumes that all dancing is wrong. That we know is not true. In 2 Samuel 6:14-16, we read of David dancing. David’s dancing was a form of worship to the Lord and rejoicing. Verse 16 also tells us that David was leaping. You said you don’t know what Holy dancing is. Well, I would consider what David was doing to be holy, and I don’t think it was organized in any way.
As we look at other types of dancing in the Old Testament, we see that there were many times which dancing was present. Most of the times that we saw dancing, it was not in a negative context. We see this in Exodus 15:20 when Miriam led the women in dance with a timbrel. This was obviously an acceptable form of dance, as it was a type of rejoicing to the Lord. Just what they did, we do not actually know, but we know they did it, and we know that they used musical instruments.
In 1 Samuel 21:11, we find that the people danced as they sang a song about David. What kind of dance? Was it to the Lord? Was God pleased? Is there any reason to think not? Did the music cause them to dance? Does it matter? Did they sing because they were dancing? Does it matter?
Job also spoke of dancing. In Job 21:11, he speaks of dancing children. Although he is speaking of the wicked, there is nothing in the text condemning it. Ecclesiastes 3:4 tells us that there is a time to dance, which is in contrast to a time to mourn. The appropriate time is not mentioned, but it is most likely times of rejoicing. There is nothing that states that this in only to be thought of as in worship. If we took it that way, we should take part 1 of the verse to mean that you should only laugh in worship.
The example you gave is when Moses came down to find the people dancing around the golden calf (Exodus 32:19-26). This is obviously sinful. They were naked, and they were dancing as an act of worship to their idol. However, there is nothing that states that dancing was the reason for Moses’ anger. The anger was the fact that they were worshiping an idol. It was direct disobedience to God’s commandant.
Another example of when dancing was accompanied with other sin was in Matthew 14:6 when the daughter of Herodias danced before Herod to influence him to behead John the Baptist. There is no mention of music here, but she danced because she was put up to it. I assume she did some form of sexual dance. If that be the case, the dance was definitely sinful. However, there is nothing in this example which is forbidding dance.
Your point is that when a person moves naturally to sound, such as tapping the foot or head bobbing, they are feeding the flesh. That is not what the Bible teaches. This is an assumption which fundamentalists have adopted. It may be safe, but it is also infringing on Christian liberty. Looking at all these verses shows that dancing in and of itself is not wrong. However, dancing can go along with sinful activities. Music and dance sometimes go together, but you can have music without dance, as well as dance without music.
A Christian can enjoy music, and if they feel like tapping their foot or clapping their hands there is nothing wrong with it; just as there is nothing wrong with a pianist getting into the music as he plays, or a violinist who moves with the music. It is natural, and to say other wise is unwarranted. If it was wrong in and of itself then it would be wrong for my 2 year old to dance when he hears the music on Veggie Tales. There is nothing wrong with enjoying music.
Before I got right with God, I went to a few clubs. While there was much dancing going on and much music being played, I did not dance. I was not interested in it. The music was not what would make me want to dance, but the fact that I enjoyed dancing. The other obvious reason would be so I could get close to an attractive female. The desire to be with the opposite sex is God given; it is not caused by music. Of course, you would look pretty silly dancing without music.
Today’s dancing in clubs is sinful. People emulate sexual acts in public. That type of act is obviously ungodly. However, to blame the sin on the music is completely unwarranted. If a man and his wife want to dance in the privacy of their home, do you think it would be sinful? If you decided to do it, would it be to Amazing Grace? If you don’t have a problem with that, well then have at it. I, however, would prefer something different for that occasion.
You then go back to the worldly argument. I have discussed this in the past, and just about anything can be taken as worldly. The worldly are going to do that which is against God’s commandments. The spiritual man will seek to honor God. Can you honor God doing things that are not necessarily spiritual? Do you have any hobbies? Photography maybe? Well, the worldly use photography in a sexual way. Should we throw out all our cameras? Of course not. The worldly argument has been used forever. No one can agree on what is worldly and what is not. How do you determine what is sinful activity, and what is not? Well, you have to go back to the Word of God. There are some things we know are right. To not do them is disobedient. There are some things you know are wrong. To do them is disobedience. There are some things that are doubtful. Again, I refer you to Romans 14:5. Paul says that each individual must discern for themselves. If you can’t do something don’t, but that does not mean it is wrong for others.
This has taken us back to where we were previously. If the Bible does not give instruction on something, man is not to make an issue of it. We become like the Pharisees who felt they had to add to the Law of God because they could not perfectly keep the law.
We must do the best we can, trust in the Holy Spirit to lead us the right way, and trust in Christ’s blood to wash us clean. Claim 1 John 1:9 when we fail. Claim Philippians 4:13 for the strength to do what we don’t think we can on our own.
You apparently didn’t read all of my argument – I never implied that all dancing is wrong. Although I didn’t mention specific dances in the Bible that were in worship to the Lord. However, I did mention a Holy dance. I stand by my argument that if it is the beat and rhythm that makes you want to move, it is wrong. If it is worship to the Lord that makes you want to move in praise to Him, it is right. It is the motive behind all of it.
I do know a little bit about music, the beat, the rhythm and the pulse of it. I understand what is going on in the backbeat, because I’ve literally felt it change how my heart feels and beats when I’ve been around it. And I’m not talking about this heavy, bass thumping, road vibrating stuff the world calls music. I’m talking about simple rock songs that have been playing in a store. I don’t know how to formulate all that into words to ‘prove’ that it is wrong, other than to say that God is not in that garbage.
You keep telling me to show you proof that is wrong… Show me proof that it is right?
Which brings me back to another point that I made which you did not address. From others’ testimonies that I have heard and seen, as well as my own, I have found that if you look at things more in a way to try to please God rather than trying not to displease Him, you have a much closer relationship with Him in all aspects.
That said, if you choose to remain ignorant to the power of music, I can’t make you hear. It may not be a Biblical issue directly, but it is a Spiritual issue without a doubt.
I’m done. This is no longer worth my time.
I understood your argument just fine. What you failed to do is connect dancing in and of its self to sin. I showed you from the Bible that there is dancing, and that sometimes it was in worship, other times it was in rejoicing, and other times it was mentioned with no specific purpose. Ecclesiastes 3:4 would suggest that it does not have to be in worship. My point to you was that people dance because they feel like it, and music is to keep them in rhythm.
You state that you know a little about music, but you can’t produce any evidence as to why a particular style of music is sinful. Furthermore, you did not describe which music is sinful, and which music is not. If you just say worldly, then you fall in the same group as those who criticized Luther for his contemporary style. History has shown this argument to be without any merit. And just saying that “God is not in that garbage,” without support, is nothing more than your opinion.
So you know how your heart feels and beats when you hear music? Dude, Charismatics make the same argument about how they feel when they get “slain in the spirit.” Yet, if they can’t back up this practice with Scripture I must reject it as error. However, some of them do a better job explaining this phenomenon with Scripture than you have your view on music.
Proof that something isn’t wrong doesn’t have to be presented, because I am not building a Biblical doctrine based on preference or feeling. My proof that your position is wrong, is that you have no evidence to prove you are right. When I decide to preach and teach that photography is wrong, then it will be up to me prove my case with Scripture. If I simply bring in photo’s of sinful scenes and say “these pictures are sinful, thus cameras and picture taking are wrong” then I would be making the same argument that you are. If I brought in the testimony of some guy who started out taking pictures of flowers, but as he continued in the practice he eventually started taking pictures of young children, and then that grew in to pictures of children in provocative poses, and then said “look what innocent picture taking will lead you to,” would that prove my new doctrine? No! Of course it would not. Neither do your arguments prove a style of music is wrong.
Looking at things in a way to try and please God; well, how do you do that? How about “every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord” (Deuteronomy 8:2-4, Matthew 4:4). How about “let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind” (Romans 14:5). It seems like the way to do this is obeying the Word of God, and to use Spiritual discernment about issues not addressed. Now, if you think that we will all agree on everything, then you are mistaken. Look back through history and you will see that our great Christian leaders (Calvin, Luther, Arminius, Gill, Spurgeon, Wesley, Edwards, etc.) have disagreed on many important doctrines. They all felt that the Holy Spirit was leading them to do things there way. Not every one of them was right about every issue, yet God still used them. The difference is that they gave a Scriptural argument for their understanding, and you have not.
You can say that I am being ignorant about the issue of music, but you failed to educate me on music. However, I could say that you continue to be ignorant about the issue of Christian liberty, and I have demonstrated through Scripture that when the Bible is silent about a subject then you do not have the authority to declare your position as the right one. However, you do have the liberty to follow the Holy Spirit as he leads you in your life.
You say it isn’t Biblical but it is spiritual. No, it is not a Biblical issue, but the Bible is God’s revelation to mankind. The Holy Spirit’s role in this is to illuminate the Word of God so that we may understand it. If you truly feel that your position is right, then you should be able to explain it from Scripture. You have not claimed to have received any direct special revelation from God, so you cannot deliver your personal views to others who hold different.
Thanks for the debate, I have enjoyed it.
God bless you as you study the Word of God.
Chris and Jonathan,
I’ve enjoyed reading your debate.
I would have loved to take part in it, seeing many points on both sides I want to respond to, but it looks like I’m a little late. Besides, Chris made most of my points for me. Thanks.
One side question just for fun:
In reference to Charismatics being ‘slain in the Spirit’ you said, “if they can’t back up this practice with Scripture I must reject it as error.”
But later you said, “I have demonstrated through Scripture that when the Bible is silent about a subject then you do not have the authority to declare your position as the right one. However, you do have the liberty to follow the Holy Spirit as he leads you in your life.”
These two points seem to contradict each other.
That is a subject for another post Amy.
The reason that they do not contradict each other is because Scripture is clear about it. However, Charismatics have concocted their own interpretation of the Scriptures dealing with it.
I am somewhat familiar with your position. I do not consider myself a total cessationist, as it is quite a jump to make that conclusion from the Scripture we have available. I will not condemn everything in your movement as false, but most of what I have seen is not Biblical, and is against the clear teaching on the subject.
When you are ready to get into the very lengthy debate, you post on it. I still have a lot of study to do before I will be prepared to Biblically debunk all your efforts.
So start studying, and until then, yes you have the liberty to worship as you feel led by the Holy Spirit. Just remember, that which is not of faith is sin. Ask yourself, is it truly of faith, or is just something that you get a good feeling from? Worship must be in Spirit and truth. Are you sure that is what the Scripture is teaching? If so, go have yourself a Holy Ghost fit.
Christopher,
I’m amused by your grouping me in with some Holy-Ghost-fit-having charismatic caricature.
You know me better than that and I’m sure you know that what you’ve seen or heard from one group of Pentecostals or charismatics doesn’t actually reflect the beliefs or practices of any other group bearing those labels.
While it’s all in fun, this is my little disclaimer for your readers… Just so they won’t think Rachel is friends with a crazy. I’ve noticed that theologically and practically, I have much more in common with you than I do with most of the ‘Pentecostals’ in your area.
While you may have a misconception of my current worship style, I assure you it is truly of faith, not good-feelings. I am sure it’s scriptural. I’m not so sure the charismatic cartoon you have in mind is though.
I think I’ll skip the Holy Ghost fit. Thanks though.
P.S. No need to reply, we can put this conversation on hold… you need more time to study.
—-
Oh and one more note in reference to your readers.
[Not necessarily those commenting on this post.]
Why must people take such offense to the ideas and arguments posted on this blog? Yes, Chris questions beliefs held dear to you… but you need not respond in anger, bitterness or — dare I say — sin. A logical reply would benefit other readers who might want to better understand each side of an issue. Emotional rhetoric doesn’t defend beliefs as effectively.
Chris and I disagree incessantly on issues of great personal and spiritual importance. Our sometimes sarcastic comments are usually accepted with a friendly chuckle.
Yes, he disagrees with things I hold dear, but we agree on so much more… on what matters most.
He’s my brother in Christ.
I’ve often heard it said that we’re supposed to look different from the world, to be set apart… as an argument for acceptable music or dress. We should look different, we should stand out as Christians. Jesus told us how:
“By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” ESV
“By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.” – John 13:35 KJV
Please friends, let us set ourselves apart so that all the world will know. Let us do so by loving each other… Even when we disagree.
Chris,
I did not read your debate with Johnathon the first time I came to your blog so I had to write back after I read it. I didn’t really see the need to say anything in my email to you about how the slang word you used in this article offended me , but I must now since I have read your reaction to Johnathon’s comment. You wrote “You are right about the word “(this spot formerly contained a word that some find offensive),” it is considered by some to be offensive. I should have stuck to biblical language. I think that some of the styles of music I have heard in traditional churches is nothing more than, uh, “dung.” That was uncalled for Chris. The sarcasim was very evident. To me, that hurt more than the first comment.
By the way, I submit a good title for your next article:
Music: Where I draw the Line.
Again I thank you for allowing me to discuss the music issue with you. God bless you and Rachel and the kids.
I apologize to you Ryan, and to you Jonathan, and to anyone else who was offended by the word I used to describe the style of music which I do not prefer. I really need to be more careful about the terms I use.
I will edit it out in each situation.
Music: Where I draw the Line
Where would that be?
Any suggestions?
Chris,
Thank you. And yes I did laugh when I read your next comment. That was good. Talk to you later.
Hi Chris Rachel Kyra Elijah & Owen
Just wanted to say hello and hope you guys are doing great. I usually get on Rachel’s site every couple of weeks to find out how you all are doing. In fact I ended up on yours, from hers, tonight. LOL Anyway take care and miss and love you all.
Tammy